Hi Bill And Boyd!

That last post is a nice facelock. From what I understand in CACC, it can be applied after a failed guillotine.

Which the guillotine itself is slightly different from the way others styles apply it.

Nice to see some familiar "faces" here!

Oh, and as far as the carrying weight in pins in CACC...all I can say is it is a far cry different than what I am used to in traditional JJ. It can really tire you out. Especially if you are grappling for any length of time.

Anyway, I am of the same mind as Bill in that I take what is useful. I think Bruce Lee advocated that as well in what he referred to as a "Classical Mess".

I think in grappling, there are only so many ways to bend/twist a joint. Everyone wants to be credited for something, and that is probably why there is some much strife within the grappling arts.

Even in Judo there was a need to add a grappling syllabus. I am sure this has been stated elsewhere. I believe this was after an encounter with a Fusen Ryu style (founded by Takeda Motsuge ... Kosen Judo). Kano had no problem with incorporating differing techniques.

I believe Boyd stated it rather poignantly, in reality... it is the nuances that differentiate the styles.

Hey OldGi! What a small world we live in

Hello,

Having seen this post on your forum about Catch wrestling, I thought some of you might be interested to know that there is a new film, 'Catch: The Hold Not Taken', which tells the tale of Lancashire Catch as Catch Can wrestling and the world-famous Billy Riley's gym. I was the co-director of the movie. I originally got interested in the subject through a family connection (Jack Pye, a wrestler of the 1930-50s, was a cousin of my Grandad's). The whole project has been a real odyssey to delve into the roots of Britains (nearly) lost martial art.

It's amazing to find out that Wigan is considered a mecca for Japanese wrestling fans, and that the style of wrestling practised by the thousands of miners in and around Wigan had such a global impact. Featured interviewees are Roy Wood, Dan Severn, Dan Gable and Tatsumi Fujinami, among others.

To find out more about the film and the legend of Billy Riley, visit the site:

http://www.riverhorse.tv/CATCH/index.htm

Geoff Thompson reviewed the film for us, which I include here:

'I have long been a fan of real wrestling, shoot or catch or hook, the stuff you see at the Olympics (as opposed to show wrestling - WWF style from the US of A) so I was delighted this week to receive a film through the post - courtesy of its makers - called Catch: the hold not taken. It is the story of Lancashire catch-as-catch-can wrestling: an all-in, submission style that became the standard for both Olympic and professional competitions.
What a fantastic film, the best documentary I have seen on wrestling.
Not only was this film authentic, it was also brilliantly put together, broadcast standard. What I loved most about Catch was the fact that it traced the roots of this unique form of wrestling back to the north of England and the infamous Snake Pit gym which was ran by none other that the legendary Billy Riley. For those of you who are already familiar with Billy's history no explanation is necessary, for those of you who are not this film is a great place to start. Amazingly much of the better wrestling we see now in America and Japan started in this tin shack (The Snake Pit) in a small corner of Wigan. There are a plethora of great interviews - spliced together with actual footage of wrestling bouts old and new - with lots of the old school wrestlers telling their tale articulately with words, action and an aura that can only be found on the wrestling mat. Catch contains classic wrestling action and allows you to meet some of the surviving descendants of Lancashire's catch legacy, along with some of the foremost names in world wrestling from the US Olympic Gold medallist Dan Gable to Ultimate Fighting champion Dan Severn, and Japanese Pro wrestling's biggest star, Tatsumi Fujinami.
This is the best DVD on the market today about real wrestling and its origins. Go out and buy it now, you won't be disappointed.'
Geoff Thompson




All the best

Node

Nice! I have a bunch of Geoff Thompson's really old instructionals ... appreciate his simple language, uncomplicated method of delivery, and common sense approach to everything else.

gggggggggggggggggggg

I just read that a hacker got into the files of Scientific Wrestling and erased everything! Jake Shannon is slightly perturbed.

Teddy,

Actually that is the forum from my site (www.groundfight.com) that got hacked and completely wiped out.

Hope it doesn't happen here.

Ken Shamrock was voted the King of Catch? I didn't know Ken Shamrock was considered a Catch wrestler?

"Ken Shamrock was voted the King of Catch?" ...Really? Where did you hear this Teddy?

Hi Bill,

From my Scientific Wrestling Newsletter, Volume 1, No. 6 by Jake Shannon.

Any validity in it or just one man's opinion?

Hmmm, I'm on that newsletter list but don't recall that one. Is there any chance you could email it to me to see if you still have it? bill@groundfight.com if not I understand, thanks Teddy!

Ok, I just got a copy of that particluar SW newsletter and that is just Jake giving his own opinion. I thought for a moment this was an actual award or something

Thanks Bill. I just wish Jake made it clear that he was just voicing his own opinon.

Also, is Ken Shamrock considered a Catch Wrestler?

Sherdog list Shamrock as saying he is a 'shoot fighter'. I don't believe he has ever made claims to be or associated himself with 'catch wrestling'. Like many others he got seriousl about studying the science of groundfighting after Royce Gracie tapped him out.

I would say he was serious about ground fight back in japan when he was fighting in the KOP tourneys which was well before he fought Royce.

Yeah, he had lots of groundfighting ability before he was in the UFC for sure, having trained under Funaki who is also a good ground technician.

"Also, is Ken Shamrock considered a Catch Wrestler?"

Personally, I think people who consider themselves "Catch guys" (guys who study Catch) try too hard to associate big names with "Catch Wrestling". They did it with Sakuraba for years saying he is a great example of Catch Wrestling. Although they may use some techniques or strategies that developed from CACC, I don't consider him a Catch Wrestler. (my opinion of course )

Oh, by the way; does Catch Wrestling teach defense against multiple attackers?

"Oh, by the way; does Catch Wrestling teach defense against multiple attackers? '

Certainly not from the studying I've done in Catch, and not from any of the historical readings I've seen although I'm sure some Catch "Gurus" will claim it does right along side Catch's "striking" game.

Also, Bill, I just saw your really excellent set of instructional photographs of the "Ankle Lock Fake Into HeelHook" at Scientific Wrestling.

You have an excellent insight into teaching. Good for you!

"Also, Bill, I just saw your really excellent set of instructional photographs of the "Ankle Lock Fake Into HeelHook" at Scientific Wrestling"

Thanks Teddy! I wasn't aware that was on the scientific wrestling website. I have a ton of technique pages on my forum: www.groundfight.com/forum

Yes, courtesy of Jake Shannon.

I like the way you stretch out the guys leg in the guard going from an ankle lock fake into the heel hook.

This type of subtle fake would only work on an experienced Catch wrestler because in my experience in Judo, when I fake a foot sweep to go into a Harai-goshi, if my opponent is a white belt, the fake is totally lost on him.

Also, in my Judo matwork experience, the 'guard' is usually done by the white belts and the inexperienced (in the upper ranks we were taught expressly not to do that). I usually push ukes knee down to the mat if he has me in the guard then go into a number of different moves to put me into position for an armbar, choke, or a hold-down. Stretching out the leg to do an ankle lock is very good.

Thanks for those instructional photos.

"This type of subtle fake would only work on an experienced Catch wrestler because in my experience in Judo, when I fake a foot sweep to go into a Harai-goshi, if my opponent is a white belt, the fake is totally lost on him."

Great observations Teddy!

TR if you go to the www.groundfight.com/forum and join you can email Bill and received his monthly newsletters. There are many good techniques such as this shown in those newslettters.

Hi Boyd,

Thank you for that suggestion. I had actually considered doing just that, but I felt that some of the information regarding Catch Wrestling might make for interesting reading for Judo people.

COMMENT: The King of Catch?

Who lays claim to the true title? I know some people like
to give themselves titles, like "The King of Pop", etc. but I would
have to give the
title of "King of American Catch Wrestling" to none other than Ken
Shamrock.

Mr. Shamrock learned submission grappling in Japan under Funaki and
Fujiwara and has
represented the style well here in the United States with a very
game attitude. He is
always willing to step into the ring to fight.

We here at Scientific Wrestling just feel that credit should be
given where it is due.
We salute you Mr. Shamrock.

With liberty and justice,
Jake Shannon

Ps. It is interesting to re-read Mr. Shamrock's book, especially
the conditioning section
where he talks about 500 squats, bridging, etc. The copyright date is a
full year earlier than
"other" certain conditioning books that you may have seen marketed
lately...

LINK:
[URL=http://rcm.amazon.com/e/cm?t=scientificwre-20&o=1&p=8&l=as1&asins=08
04831513&fc1=000000&=1&lc1=0000ff&bc1=000000&lt1=_blank&IS2=1&f=ifr&
bg1=ffffff&f=ifr]Inside The Lion's Den[/URL]

Great thread! The above "guest" post was mine. BTW, this is Jake Shannon from Scientific Wrestling.



I underlined the portion that implied it was my opinion. Also, it was under a "COMMENT" heading to express that it was a commentary, like an editorial. Hope this makes it clear. I did start a vote over on the groundfight forum though to determine the living King of Catch if you wish to chime in.

Ken (and Frank Shamrock too) credits Funaki and Suzuki for teaching him submissions. Both Funaki and Suzuki learned directly from Yoshiaki Fujiwara and Karl Gotch. Karl calls his style Catch Wrestling, meaning that he learned his methods of control and submission while training in Wigan with Billy Riley and Pops Charnock under Lancashire CACC rules.



Gaijin Judoka is totally right, King of Pancrase tournaments well document how serious Shamrock was about groundfighting well before the UFC.

Shamrock lost due to the fact that he was training under a rule set that barred chokes and didn't use a gi. This is how Royce won, with a gi choke.

This leads to a point that I feel is very important: differences between styles is a direct result of the variance of the rules among styles and their training methods. CACC developed the way it did because of the rules of engagement and it's methods of training and learning.

Bill is right, CACC does not have a well developed bottom game and I think that Sambo is a great complement to CACC given that Sambo is more conscious leglocks than the BJJ I have seen.

CACC has no ideas about striking or multiple opponents per se but some combo men (competitors trained in both CACC and pugilism) can tell you something about striking (men like Danny Hodge, Frankie Cain, Tom Jenkins).

Also, I suppose anyone that has had real tag team or royal rumble rules matches could chime in about multiple attackers. In my research I have found none yet.

Anyone trying to tell you different (that Catch has strikes or techniques for multiple opponents, etc.) is trying to sell you something or scam you.

CACC is a set of rules (with fewer rules it is often referred to as Rough & Tumble which is vicious and more applicable to self-defense than competition) developed by a culture influenced heavily by scientific values (rational empiricism)

Hope this helps!

Kind regards,
Jake Shannon
Managing Director
Scientific Wrestling

hhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

TR, thanks! Elliot Gorn is the man to go to on Rough & Tumble (he is the man that wrote the article that Bill linked to). Hope this helps!

Hi Mr. Shannon. I visit and post (rarely) in various Wrestling forums (including Catch and Sub Wrestling), belong to some Wrestling email distribution lists, and regularly read and occasionally participate in various BJJ forums.

Mark Hatmaker endorsed on your website, Library Page of Scientific Wrestling, the Catch texts you've re-published. So far, my post has been a pretty convoluted effort to somehow tie Mark Hatmaker to Catch, but it serves a purpose, maybe minor

There's a pretty active thread in mma.tv's BJJ forum about Mark being a "fraud". OH NO! Not another one of those what else is on fire?

You may or not may not find it interesting, but it does mention and highlight Scientific Wrestling. Click here to open the mma.tv thread.. Thanks.

Mark is a great guy and has not lied about anything. He is not a fraud, just a kindred spirit looking to spread information about CACC. He has never said he trained with people that didn't train him (some long dead mysterious master or whatever) or that he won championships (like the Golden Gloves or anything). Mark is a good guy and has some solid ideas from what I've seen.

Jake_Wrestler: 'Sup bro? Good to see you on this board. I hope that all is going well.

He needs to get a new publisher. They way some of his material has been marketed in the past makes him seem as good as a fraud as any.

Hey Jarvis!

Yes, Mark complains a lot about the hyperbole in their marketing material.

http://www.scientificwrestling.com/


Good Stuff!

Even more good stuff:

http://www.scientificwrestling.com/public/101.cfm?sd=2

i would have been interested to see how he ended up in that situation

Pro-Catch Wrestling seems intriguing!

http://www.scientificwrestling.com/public/department41.cfm

since i live in the uk,and we have some great old school catch and grappling styles to our name,can anyone suggest a place to visit for a lesson?any help/offers much appreciated.

Even if Shamrock is the king of american catch as far as legit lineage goes, I'd rather learn from Tony, he knows how to instruct properly, something Shammy obviously lacks.

Same situation occurs in Judo, all the talented competitition fighters lack teaching skills or just leave Judo entirely after their competition days are over. That is why I constantly urge the need for SENSEI's in American Judo, obviously the same is true for Catch Wrestling.

Yeah, too many people don't realise that a good teacher is not always a good fighter and a good fighter is not always a good teacher.

The same problem exists in Universities here in Boston where you get tenured based on your research and not on your ability to teach. A good teacher will never get tenured at a University, its all based on your ability to do research.

Lancashire is the place to be- loads of different types of submission fighting in places like Manchester, Bolton, Stockport, Leigh, Atherton, and even in places in Merseyside like Liverpool, St Helens and Widnes

get yourself over to www.cagewarriors.com/forums and ask there, there are loads of guys from that way on that forum

I have something to say to those who are familar and not familar with catch. Instead of repeating myself, I will post the link. Scroll to the bottom; I have made three posts in reply to a person discussing Judo and catch. Most importantly, I talk about cecchine and furey. The short version is they are both con men but not the only ones.

http://judoforum.com/index.php?showtopic=9...52&#entry166152

Take care.

Hi SEAL,

I read your posts with fascination. I also follow Scientific Wrestling as much as possible. Since my only experience with Catch Wrestling so far is only research, have you published or did demo videos clips on the web for analysis and research? If not, that might be an excellent contribution to Catch Wrestling.

Also, a question: Is there a difference between Catch-as-catch-can wrestling as practiced in Europe and America? And, in your opinion, is Catch wrestling evolving into something not Catch?

Thanks!

Interesting question, TeddyRoosevelt -- no, I have not contributed to catch wrestling through those avenues. I'd like to clear the air and simply say I don't consider myself to be an authority on this subject. I think I'm knowledgable of the subject, but I don't consider myself an expert. Guys like Jake Shannon and Dave Meltzer are far more qualified for such praise. Having said all that, I'm pleased you enjoyed the posts.

As far as american and european catch, historically, differences were (and still are) abound. Each country/region had at least one style. England has Lancashire; India has Pehlwani; France has FILA, and so forth. You see, it's a bit overstated to group all those styles into one and call it european catch. American catch is exactly that, an amalgamation of various wrestling styles from around the world.

Unfortunately, catch wrestling in those regions are being supplanted by other submission wrestling styles from eastern europe and Japan, such as Judo and Sambo. Karl Gotch and Billy Robinson learned lancashire (from Riley's Snakepit) and american catch (they felt the american variation was superior). Both shared their knowledge with Japan. This is the style that is spreading albeit slowly. You can still learn styles like lancashire, but it shares with american catch the difficulty in securing proficient localized instruction. England may be a little better off than America, perhaps.

I don't think catch is evolving into something else, at least not in the short interium. The idea of American catch is to evolve, like many martial arts, but keep the core priniciples intact. In catch, if you find a technique that works, you adapt it to your arsenal. This is where it differs from arts like Judo and Karate (Forgive me for including Karate and Judo in the same sentence). To change into something else is to supplant the training methods and principles, not the techniques. As long as the rules and training of catch are intact, I don't see it evolving into something else entirely.

Again, the Guest was me. I Just registered, too.

Thinking of European catch and American catch is something of a misunderstanding. Catch-as-catch-can as applied by people currently seems to imply a systemised wrestling style that Im not sure ever existed. In Lancastrian dialect The CACC phrase means to hold/grab in any way possible. It was a description on the style fought. There were a number of wrestling styles practised in the British isles which could be broadly classes as loosehold (In-play snd/or out play), backhold (C&W, Scottish) and CACC.CACC was the only one which involved any groundwork. Wrestling matches were held as a diversion, an entertainment, there was no real central organization and so no syllabus. Fighters styles were dictated by there teachers mostly. The phrase was taken to the americas and the basic rule format of pins and submissions survived but the styles were as individual as the peopel who practiced them. It was a rule set that people applied ther techniques too. Many early jiu-jitsu exponants who travelled to england fought matches under CACC rules. The whole thing regarding catch evolving into something else. It did evolve. We just call it freestyle these days.