Nishioka, a judoka with alot of competition wins, challenged Rickson Gracie(bjj) in a gi grappling match. (from Gracie in Action #1).

Look at the video clip.

Why Nishioka, knowing he is facing a newaza specialist, opens the fight with a ko-ouchi-gari? This technique would have let him in Rickson's guard if successfull, and instead Nishioka was reversed during the fall down.

A really bad choice of technique in that particular situation? What he should have done?


_________________

I edited this post. I was misinformed. Gaijin_judoka re-etasblished the facts somewhere in the thread :

"Nishioka did not challenge Rickson. Nishioka also did not know that Rorion was going to turn around and sell this tape as Gracies beating up on all styles and people. Rorion had told Nishioka that he wanted him to evaluate his brothers and cousins. Now you know why some judoka have a problem with Gracie jj. Also a garden variety juji done right works on anyone.

Read this link to get a different perspective on the whole thing."

http://www.geocities.com/global_training_r...ie_invasion.htm

__________________

So, to re-center the debate here is my new question :


Would you attack with a ko-ouchi against a newaza killer to dominate the action on the ground? Higher percentage techniques maybe? Pick-ups?

I'm really curious how other judokas would play the game against newaza players knowing that the match doesnt end with ippon. Lets say like in the Kosen tournaments.

I have to deal with that kind of situations frequently and so far, even with a gi on, I'm going more and more towards sambo/russian judo kinda throws/PICK-UPS...

Weird. I have been defending the "stay straight posture type" for the last 2 years within the bjj comunity when fighting with a gi. But when I go back to my judo club, I found myself doing things the "russian way".


So, finally, here it is :

What kind of posture and techniques would you use against a newaza player that stands with a "wrestler" posture in a gi-grappling match?

Oups! here is the link :

Cool clip. Not cool that Nishioka succumbed to a garden-variety juji gatame.

has any one contacted hayward nishioka to confirm that he made the challenge and this is not just a demonstration being hyped as another victory by gracie just judo

Hmmmm. why does the clip start with them standing still in a formal grip???

looks like a demo to me

"
In 1988 members of the Gracie family enter Hayward Nishioka's (an AAU national judo champion, US judo champion in '66, '67, '71) southern California judo school for some friendly grappling"

Concidering this allmost all international level players would have owned Nishioka 1988 in tachiwaza and in newaza. Even on Nshiokas prime he would have got owned by many judoplayers. Being national champion in US is not much.

There are thousands of judoclubs who would go to most of US judoclubs and massacre everybody. Afterwars they could have marketed their superior(Russian, Korean, Georgian Braziliann etc judo).

These hilarious marketing tapes are one reason why there is so muchbad blood between bjj and judo players.

i read about this from another forum and it was supposedly a "challenge". i thought it was a demo too when i first saw it because it looked very basic.

Simple. It wasn't a "fight" or a challenge, but a Kouchi-Gari demonstration. I bet he was invited to give a tachiwaza clinic and was demonstrating kouchi-gari. How else do you explain them just standing there, no movement, no grip fighting?

I don't know Hayward personally, but based on what I have read about him, he does not sound like the kind of Judoka that would go around challenging other "styles" or schools?

ps. Nice Kouchi-Gari!

Looks like a bit of friendly randori during a club visit.

Interesting, but proves nothing.

Nishioka did not challenge Rickson. Nishioka also did not know that Rorion was going to turn around and sell this tape as Gracies beating up on all styles and people. Rorion had told Nishioka that he wanted him to evaluate his brothers and cousins. Now you know why some judoka have a problem with Gracie jj. Also a garden variety juji done right works on anyone.

Read this link to get a different perspective on the whole thing.

http://www.geocities.com/global_training_r...ie_invasion.htm

Good job Gaijin. My mistake. On Gracie in action, did rorion say that it was a challenge? I think I heard this on the tape...but still, the whole tape is the most biased thing I've ever heard!


The clip is nice though....


Just a little sad that even if I'm absolutely not trying to retsart the old debate, and I was just trying to discuss technique, it would easily turn into the same old war again.

Let say these two were both judokas...One newaza specialist and one good thrower...

Would you attack with a ko-ouchi against a newaza killer to dominate the action on the ground? Higher percentage techniques maybe? Pick-ups?



I'm really curious how other judokas would play the game against newaza players knowing that the match doesnt end with ippon. Lets say like in the Kosen tournaments.

I have to deal with that kind of situations frequently and so far, even with a gi on, I'm going more and more towards sambo/russian judo kinda throws/PICK-UPS...

Weird. I have been defending the "stay straight posture type" for the last 2 years within the bjj comunity when fighting with a gi. But when I go back to my judo club, I found myself doing things the "russian way".


So, finally, here it is :

What kind of posture and techniques would you use against a newaza player that stands with a "wrestler" posture in a gi-grappling match?

Maybe the thread should be moved in the technique section then.

Oups I did it again! That was me above!

I stand upright usually. Sometimes I crouch till I get the gi but once I 've got the gi I don't have to worry about a shoot. Then I try to stand back up. I have been known to crouch as I get tired though. I usally go for the pick up style moves when I get put into a crouched position.

Alright I'll bite.

Personally, I tend to try throws that don't land me in the guard (my experience is playing vs. BJJ). de ashi, ko soto, o soto, sasae, ken-ken uchimata, etc. If they try for arm drag -> rear takedown, do sode makikomi -> kesa gatame. Gripping, keep one hand up and one down (to block the shoot) until you can get an intial grip then modify. Depending on rules you can also use some illegal judo grips, grab the belt, crossgrips, pistol grips, 2 hands on one side, etc. that can provide some helpful control. Throw to position to submission.

Okay, now let the real experts comment.

I would continue with an upright posture. With this posture:

- I am in control and can dominate a hunched over player.
- I have more attacking options.
- I am more mobile, so I can avoid my opponents attacks and can move him off his base.

My strategy against a player with dangerous newaza in a match that does not end in ippon would (IDEALLY) be to take him out with a strong makikomi throw that would land him flat on his back and me directly in kesa gatame - giving me control before he has a chance to think about it. From there I would work a choke or armlock for the submission. That would be in my Perfect World....

But my world is rarely perfect.


Gaijin: thanks for the link to the transcript with Nishioka and the Gracies. It provides a lot more context.

upright stance for me. i learned it that way and am very comfortable with it. maybe also because i think i have bad lungs... huched over, i feel/think like i don't get enough air while doing randori.

I completely agree with Jeff. Play upright (just didn't actually say it).

OT: It confuses me when the local BJJ guys say that it works well on the street, but then play crouched. When I see them train striking they don't seem to stand that way. How would you keep from getting your head smashed in when crouched?

more gracie j j propaganda uncovered, just like those ufc fights that the gracies fix and wont fight anyone that can beat them

Koshi guruma or soto makikomi straight into kesa. I also find O tsuri goshi very effective against bent over types.

dead link :axe:

what's the difference of O tsuri goshi and tsuri goshi?

I find that the sambo grips are just variations. If you play and take whatever grips your opponent gives you then you learn to throw lots of different ways with different grips. Sambo is not all Greco roman wrestling in a Kurtka. There has been 30 years of cross over between mainstream Judo and Sambo.

If you play guys who like to take it to the ground, then get good on the ground and work your transitions into newaza so that you tend to maintain a dominant position on the ground.

The opponent bents over, then push his head into the gound, or take a grip that dominates the upper space - like the obiitori grip or some th e sambo grips - flank to the side and attack the corners.

Ultimately ippons are great if you can meake them happen. But Ippons throws are hard to get. Other thros that just put the guy down need to be followed up into a dominant position. If you can't maintain the control to stay dominant, then you may just be technically outclassed...

J

Also, I question the logic of an bent over stance with a gi on.

Its a different situation in wrestling where ther is less friction and little possibility of a strong forward pull.

Even Sambo it seems to me does not typically 'hunch' over without the context of specific grips.

The bent over stance you see in a lot of BJJ standing work i think is just bad form. The better playes don't do it. Stiff arms, and legs pulled back defends against hip throws, but creats gaping openings for hand throws and sacrifice throws.

Jon

You're absolutely right. Also, my bad for taking the video at face value - didn't have any reason to suspect otherwise...

and o soto gari.

I would do what I normally do. Ie - be very cautious abt using any throw in which I turn my back, rely on my good throws, work footsweeps, counter fight etc. IOW: I don't really do anything special, just my everyday thing.

Having said that - ouchi to normal kneebar is a bit of a fav with me. If you ride them down correctly the leg just falls into place. Failing that, the leg position this leaves you in (one of their things pinned down by your shin) is excellent for passing guard IMHO.

Ko-ouchi? Not a big fan of that one, though I can see some clever cookie doing a fwd roll (ukemi) and getting an inverted heelhook or side control. Maybe.

Still - who am I to tell a judoka of that calibre what to do?

Besides which....it seems lot more like a demo than a match. More to the story methinks.

Clearly that should say 'thighs' not 'things'.

Pinning their 'things' down is a guard pass of an altogether different flavour

Nishioka should not be frowned on Rickson is very Much like the Greek Mythical Hero Achillies it is said that no man has ever taped him ,every world champion in Bjj who has rolled with Rickson say the samething "he taped me" "he played with me like a cat to a mouse"

also he is the Gracie Family Champion.

he is also a cheat and a ufc fixer

^^^ Rickson doesn't have #%*/ to do with the ufc.....



anyways, Rickson is a Shodan under George Medhi in brazil...


so he's definately a complete Judoka/jujitsuka the way kano intended imo....

why did you say that?

i heard that some of them also learned judo. if this was the case why were they playing as if they didn't know the rules in nishioka's club?

http://www.geocities.com/global_training_r...ie_invasion.htm

both the UFC 1, 2, 3 and the Pride 1 & 2 were simply contrived ways of exposing bjj to the world and at times, rigged. Rorion left out some good grapplers so Royce wouldnt have a problem.

when the Gracies were searching for compeititors for the uFc, Art Davie found a strong russian wrestling champ who wanted to compete in the UFC. When Mark Shulltz lasted 30 minutes, a full half hour, wrestling with Rickson, Rorion told every one that Shultz stunk and didnt deserve to be in the ufc and Rorion did everthing he could to prevent Shutlz from competing. Rorion succeeded.

This might be another reason why Rorion never invited sambo competitors from the former soviet union because for wrestling, Rorion took Severn to represent wrestling in the UFC. Severn had nothing as a background or ranking at the time, and Rorion chose some sambo player from europe who was fighting his first match. But when Oleg Taktarov moved to the US, Rorion wanted Oleg to teach him leg locks. Rorion wanted Oleg to spar Royce but canceled it when Oleg beat several senior BJJ fighters with ease.

Art Davie went to scout out Oleg Taktarov, Rorion said Oleg was no good as a fighter and not to let him fight in the UFC. But Oleg went on to win the UFC championship against much more skilled opponents than Royce. It was said of the Gracies in the UFC 2 "the more you train with the Gracies and learn their style, the more the Gracies learn from you." BJJ is a copycat style.

Rorion lies about the accomplishments of the fighters he choses for UFC or Pride always calling them champions though some had never fought before or had little competition experience. Yes Kimo ran to BJJ after a defeat but Severn went to judo and sambo, Shamrock just studied judo chokes so he wouldn't get caught off gard.

Gracies lie about everybody in mma does BJJ, plenty don't. Vochancyn beat Almedia with sambo and almost every mma competitor out of russia does a different grappling art than BJJ. They didnt learn BJJ to beat BJJ as the gracies say. Another lie is that Ricksons record is 400-0, but rickson lost to tripp, so thats one.

1. your talking about Rorion which is a different story than Rickson. Rickson is known to be a man of honor.

2. Rorion tried to get Karelin to fight in UFC but it didnt happen. Can you imagine if it did? As soon as Royce left wrestlers dominated the sport for a good 4 years. Karelin is a animal and probably woulda ground and pounded royce a bloody one

Rorion is a Marketing genius! A lot of us in the US can thank the Gracies for the renewed interest in ne waza submissions, for a more complete Judo. Otherwise, we would've been so comfortable with just the sports aspect and not the martial art.

"Vochancyn beat Almedia with sambo and almost every mma competitor out of russia does a different grappling art than BJJ. They didnt learn BJJ to beat BJJ as the gracies say. Another lie is that Ricksons record is 400-0, but rickson lost to tripp, so thats one. "


HUH??? Almedia as in Ricardo never fought Vochancyn also remember there are two sides of the story Guest from what hear from Pedro Sauer(5th dan in BJJ) said everytime he rolled with oleg at the Gracie Academy is that he would arch his arms like rainbows with arm locks.


as for Rickson's Record 400-0 thats a myth and the event he "Played in was a Sambo" event and he lost by a Throw it's not as Mr Tripp owend him or anything.

more myth and disinformation from the gracie camp and that 400-0 myth was created and disemenated by the gracies

bjj is a copy cat style and an embarrasment to the fighting arts everywhere its just riding judos coattails for a free ride no $$$ and no gracie j j

I do NOT respect the way they did their GIA! Invading innocent Dojos when they do NOT expect it, is NOT an example of True Bushido and Budo!

Arch WHO's arms like rainbows from Juji Gatame? Oleg got HIS arms arched, or Pedro?

"bjj is a copy cat style and an embarrasment to the fighting arts everywhere its just riding judos coattails for a free ride no $$$ and no gracie j j "

::rolls eyes at the moron::

"Arch WHO's arms like rainbows from Juji Gatame? Oleg got HIS arms arched, or Pedro? "


Pedro was the one who was cranking on Olegs arms.

It was Andre Semenov that defeated Ricardo Almeida...not Igor Vovchanchyn. As much as I love to watch Ricardo I would not wish Igor on anyone.

Also Ken Shamrock DID study BJJ after his loss to Royce to be more familiar with it(as did Funaki and Suzuki). Ken is cool like that.

The story about Oleg getting his arms locked out by Pedro Sauer is true, what is never mentioned is how well Oleg did before and after his arm getting caught and the fact that he never tapped and fought through the situation. Oleg did do very well in most grappling situations actually.

This actually seems, for the most part, to be an interesting discussion.

Hi JudoBJJKid,

I really must take exception to what you just wrote, about thanking the Gracies for a more complete Judo. Thank them for What? As I wrote on another thread, what does BJJ have to offer Judo?

The martial arts craze in the U.S. was kicked off in 1970 by a movie called Five Fingers of Death directed by Run Run Shaw.

Bruce Lee conditioned the American public to be receptive to these movies and the martial arts by his presence on TV's The Green Hornet as Kato in the late 1960s.

Anton Geesink was the first non-Japanese in the Olympics to win a gold medal in Judo in 1964, bringing Judo to serious attention in the west.

During the 1970s the Soviet Union Judo players introduced Sambo techniques to international Judo competition, and the Americans introduced free-style wrestling techniques to Judo competition. Aaron Banks organized mixed martial arts matches in Madison Square Garden in the late 1960s through the early 1970s pitting Judo players against boxers, karateka's against Judo players, boxers against wrestlers, etc. etc. The most notable was boxer Milo Savage vs. Gene LeBell in 1963.

It was Sambo that was to be touted as the newest unbeatable fad in the 70s, then the Ninja craze of the 80s, then the BJJ fad of the 90s.

But Brazilian Jiu Jitsu or the Gracie Family was never heard of in the U.S. until the 1990s - so how did Brazilian Jiu Jitsu or the unknown Gracie Family be thanked for renewing an interest in something that had never lost interest in the first place? I earned my Nidan in Judo without ever hearing of the Gracie Family, or of Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, or ever hearing Judo referred to as a sport.

Judo has always been considered and treated as a martial art from 1945 until the 1990s when the word 'sport' had somehow crept into the vernacular of Judo. Yet somehow all of this Judo history in the U.S. has been overwhelmed by BJJ marketing hype and glitz so that even a 13 year old person like yourself is touting BJJ marketing propaganda the way a 19 year old was touting Marxist propaganda during the Vietnam War.

It has been my personal observation of US martial arts history over the past 35 years that unknown BJJ or the Gracie Family have contributed almost nothing to Judo, but have taken quite a bit from it as evidenced in their BJJ books, manuals, video tapes, and newaza.

For a more complete Judo all one needs to do is simply master all of Judo's kata's, and then apply them. BJJ has nothing new to contribute to Judo as far as I can research.

The Gracies amplified the importance, fun, technical aspects of ne waza. In our dojo, and apparently some North American dojos, the study of tachi waza has been given more importance than ne waza. In my dojo, ne waza study and practice is minimal.

I agree the Gracies have taken a lot from Judo. Consider that if Judo dojos in North America provided as much ne waza training as BJJ, I doubt BJJ academies would be as popular as they've become.

We have a lot of forum members who train both and the only reason I can imagine is that BJJ satisfies a hole/gap in their Judo. It did take the Gracies to point this out ... I don't blame them for taking advantage of this. Whether their methods were honorable or not is another discussion. Thanks.

Obviously I respectfully disagree. The Gracies are just one of many individuals who have hyped their style in the past three to four decades and have done nothing new under the sun.

judobjjkid brought up some very valid arguments so other than the i disagree it'll be interesting to see teddy respond.

GIA? Those tapes and videos like these are so wrong in so many levels. Exactly the type to fuel the imaginations of the tough BJJ white belts and talk smack.

The Gracies are just one family of many, many individuals who have hyped their style and clogged the advertising pages to the exclusion of all else giving a false impression of uniqueness to yet another generation of martial arts teenagers as was done in the 60s (Aaron Banks); the 70s (Soviet Sambo); the 80s (Ninja craze); and again with the Gracies in the 90s. But the Gracies have offered nothing new or unique with their Brazilian Jiu Jitsu clone of Judo newaza.

An opinion from an experienced man -

Jon Bluming interview:

QUESTION:

"Much of Mixed Martial Arts nowadays concerns itself with three basic styles that every one uses; those are Muay Thai (for kicks, knees and elbows), Boxing (for punches) and various forms of grappling (Gracie, Sambo, Wrestling, Judo). Are you training your students in these styles as well, or using strictly Karate and Judo?"

BLUMING:

"Yes, that's right, but I think you give the Gracies too much leverage; they did NOT bring in something new."

source: http://www.realfighting.com/0102/jonblumi.htm

"For a more complete Judo all one needs to do is simply master all of Judo's kata's, and then apply them. BJJ has nothing new to contribute to Judo as far as I can research. "


as far as you can research is based on your biased opinion for bjj.


"Yes, that's right, but I think you give the Gracies too much leverage; they did NOT bring in something new."


if that is so then why are Police,Army,Marines,school teachers,RBMA, all look to BJJ for there Groundwork or how to fight from the ground?

FACE IT BJJ is here to stay and it's not gonna go away because of a few bad Jealous apples in the tree. Bjj has something to contribute to Judo just just like Judo has something to contribute to BJJ.

if you ever get the chance dig up some tapes on the Dave and Dan Camarillo both brothers are respected Judoka who are also BJJ black belts it's when you watch them play it's amuseing when it hits the mat how they just play with Judoka who know little to nothing about bjj so yes BJJ does have something to offer Judo BETTER Newaza.

As far as the Gracies Marketing.. can't be too Bad half the gracies are Millionaires may not be the best way about going about it but hey we all got to find a way to make it in like and they found there niche