Camarillo brothers demoing Judo and BJJ.

Hi Vitor,

Your observation is just the ends justifying the means of any methodology to provided a false-validation of Gracie Jiu-Jitsu, and that's an act of desperation.

And you guys are both hijacking the thread. Please return to the discussion.

It's sad to see so many Judoka's are unwilling to see how much a positive contribution BJJ is to their world. So narrow minded. Most BJJ players that I know (including me) have taken/ are taking Judo lessons (freestyle wreslting lessons) as well because we regognise the need for good standup skills. I do not understand the bitterness Judoka's have towards BJJ. When I read posts by people such as Teddy Roosevelt, spweing their purist rhetoric, it makes me wonder if they even have tried one BJJ lesson from a black belt?

Before going back to the main topic here, I 'd like to say that I agree with Vitor. Yes, you can learn from everybody, and bjj brings alot into my judo game.


So, Daddy Teddy strikes again! We were discussing this on an other thread ("dealing with tackles", If I remember).

1-Teddy HAS FREAKIN' NEVER ROLLED WITH A BJJ PLAYER. But of course, he knows it all, so he might be right...

PLUS

2-He is older than most of us and has been practising judo for 35 years...WOW!!!
I AM IMPRESSED! But does it give Teddy the right to AGAIN discredite someone's opinion because he is younger (here, he did it against Judobjjkid but I saw it on this forum several times).

Poor Teddy, you are so limited...by yourself! Jean-Luc Rougé said once : "being predictible is being vulnerable". We all know your opinion on Bjj Teddy, and dont bother repeating it.Until you roll with a Bjj black belt, its not valid...And only then, You'll discover few "details" on ne waza my good man!


NOW, the topic was : How do you deal with a really good ground fighter (from judo, bjj, sambo etc..as long as its with a gi) who is fighting with a "wrestling posture" in tachi waza, in a match that doesnt end with an ippon throw (follows on the gorund) ???

This made me laugh, you are a true TMA guy. If you beleive this you have never been in a fight or competed. The single most important thing BJJ "stole" from judo is the importance of live sparring.

Teddy, I don't mean to be disrespectful to my elders, but I have a feeling that you are one of those guys Bruce Lee referred to as a "Fat Sensei".

Teddy is a pure traditionalist and his views do not necessarily represent 'many judokas'. Look at the thread where people are polled on what they cross train in? What's the winner? I don't think we are that closed minded of a group.

It's sad to see so many Judoka's are unwilling to see how much a positive contribution BJJ is to their world.

Is it though, or is it just causing bitterness and resentment amongst former friends?

I'm a BJJ'er & Judoka, but I have to stop and wonder what has BJJ (the art) positively contributed to Judo (the art) as a whole? I know what it's done for me personally, but in terms of the whole art.....?

I can't even honestly tell if there has been a resurgence in newaza at grassroots level and if there has, whether it's because of BJJ (unkliley).

I do not understand the bitterness Judoka's have towards BJJ.

Blame the BJJ hype machine and places like mma.tv. sherdog etc. GIA tapes didn't exactly engender friendliness between arts.

Plus, when BJJ started to take off in 1993-4-5, how common was it to hear that a 'white belt in BJJ will crucify a black belt in Judo' and 'Judo is rubbish!' This type of opinion still exists (on the net at least). I have even encountered in real life. "Oh...BJJ invented the triangle, judo doesn't have that. Oh, BJJ is much better with chokes" etc etc

But some people are stupid like that.

*shrugs*

Life your own life, mind your own business I guess. Once statistic that I've read is that 90% of folks that start BJJ never make it to / beyond blue belt. Dunno how that correlates to judo and other arts, but it must be abt the same.

Poor Teddy, you are so limited...by yourself! Jean-Luc Rougé said once : "being predictible is being vulnerable". We all know your opinion on Bjj Teddy, and dont bother repeating it.Until you roll with a Bjj black belt, its not valid...And only then, You'll discover few "details" on ne waza my good man!

You know, let's just quit ragging on Teddy. 35yrs is 35yrs and there's some honour in that. Besides, a man is entitled to his own opinions and who am I to impose mine on his? I hope common human decency allows for that to cut both ways.

NOW, the topic was : How do you deal with a really good ground fighter (from judo, bjj, sambo etc..as long as its with a gi) who is fighting with a "wrestling posture" in tachi waza, in a match that doesnt end with an ippon throw (follows on the gorund) ???

I've answered that one already. However with the stipulation of 'wrestling posture', I'd like to say that I'd be nutty enough to try for a sacrifice throw. I feel much more comfortable with these then say an uchimata (which what most would recommend). If we're going ass over tit down there (which is what a ground specialist wants), we're going on my terms, not yours. My hope if to put you in a bad position and then tear off the first thing that comes to hand (arm, leg, neck etc).

But I'm nutty like that.

Awesome bob_stra! You expressed the words and thoughts I could only string together in my mind but not type! TR is a respected forum member with strong beliefs and opinions. Other than his feelings for the blue gi and BJJ, I find value in his posts.

*rei*

So basically Guest_bob_stra, you would play the "ground fighter" game, even if, lets say, he is better than you down there?

I dont know man. If I know that the guy is better than me at ne waza, I would try to throw him or pick him up to slam him down and then pin him until he gets tired and then, waiting for his mistake. All that, knowing that if I make a mistake, I'm dead.

About Teddy : he sure knows judo, I respect that. But when he gives generously his opinion on bjj, not knowing what he is talking about (like a Catholic priest giving "sure advices" about sex to other fellows) in a paternalist way ( like :"listen-to-my-wisdom-my-young-boy-I-will-teach-you-life" style) that pisses me off a bit.


Bah, whatever...from now on, I'll just stop talking about Teddy's opinions except if its about pure judo.

judobjjkid-

that was an awesome video, i had not seen that yet, but it is definatly going in the collection.

great find. i would love to see more, if you have any other links that encorporate the two sports so well.

Yes! Very slick!

www.onthemat.com in the section "video"


There is alot : I suggest Ronaldo "Jacare" and Terrere and of course, the other Camarillo vids.

judbjjkid, could you post the Dave Camarillo vs Tomas Hill match that was just insane how he finished Tomas.

No, not really.

I'm betting that the sterotypiacl 'ground fighter' know how to ground fight - and that's it.

However I'm hoping that my transitions from standing to ground to lock are better than his.

'sides, there's nothing in the rules that says I have to stay down there with him. A sacrifice throw should land me in a good position. I try to lock. If it fails, I get the hell out of dodge.

Like I said - nutty.

"'sides, there's nothing in the rules that says I have to stay down there with him. A sacrifice throw should land me in a good position. I try to lock. If it fails, I get the hell out of dodge."



who says he is gonna let you up a LOT can happen in 25 sec.....

Good strategy Bob. That will frustrate the guy and make him do some "impatience" mistakes.

Kosen

Re: "listen-to-my-wisdom-my-young-boy-I-will-teach-you-life". Yeah, that kinda irks me too. *shrugs*

Vitor

Who said anything abt 25 seconds? I attack, I throw, I try to lock. If it even hints like I'm not getting anywhere, I stand up. Total ground time ~3 seconds.

(In this hypothetical situation, I am assuming that my 'extract self from mess throw' skills are better than his. Otherwise this boils down to how hard can I throw the guy, how often, before one of us makes a mistake)

I realise the inherent problems in this, but like I said...you gotta try stuff. If my sub fails and he wants to play guard....no thanks. (assuming judo rules, I stand newaza ends. Other wise, I stand and walk away. I'm patient and can wait gor him to get up)

Sorry, don't have it.

and jiu-jitsu.

The conceit on this 'Judo?' forum is that whenever someone mentions jiu-jitsu, Brazilian Jiu Jitsu is automatically assumed to be what's talking about. I have quite a bit of Hakko-ryu jiu-jitsu and self-defense experience as well. I just eliminated my karate training as a teen to pursue Judo and Jiu-jitsu, which is what I have tried to limit myself in this Judo forum.

That is the trouble with a type-written format, it turns everybody into keyboard warriors with really no way to verbally describe their experiences without sounding like bravado.

But like a punk 20 year old who threatened to beat me up using Muay Thai (and once BJJ), they make the misassumption that they are the only ones who have ever studied the martial arts, and don't realize that I too was once young and dumb and full of c*&%(vinegar) and have plenty of experience beating up karate and boxing and kickboxing people, using Judo and Jiu-Jitsu, and still very capable of doing it today.

Good for you.

I was just reading a posted article from "Open Discussion" forum entitled "A Judo/BJJ Article"... to an extent, TR's points are validated by M. Tripp's opinion.

I have rolled with some of my friends who practice BJJ and it was fun. They have been training their art the same time as I have in judo (4 yrs.) and I can say I give them a slight edge in newaza. But this was just practice and the mistakes should be done in the dojo/academy. My sensei loves newaza and was a former wrestler at Meiji University. I also heard from other judokas that our dojo is pretty strong in newaza training. We are lucky enough that we have people come down our dojo who cross train so we learn from everyone.

One day my friend came down, I thought about all the internet posts that some white belt can tap out a judo black belt. I was actually gonna see this happen. He played against 2 of our international students, one was from France, the other was from Guyana (former Olympian like father). My friend was beaten handily. Against other senior students, he faired better but still came out with a losing record. Then again, it was only practice and in a judo dojo.

What I say about BJJ students is nothing new. They are more fluid in newaza and very comfortable with the attempt of submissions. That is expected. We learn from experience at our dojo. It's like playing basketball. They can teach you the skills but you have to play everyday to put them together and be excellent at it. You have to find your own technique. However, on a different day, one of the junior instructors, breaks the technique down like they do it in the my friends academy. It was very helpful.

I am not trying to troll bjj students from my rant above. If I did come across as, I was I apologize. Personally, I think all of this pissing contests between the 2 arts are only in the internet.

My point was just to share my learning experience with bjj players. I learned that they have no trouble taking the fight on the ground where I find my weakness to be. I have no confidence in my newaza that's why I do not use sacrifice throws in shiai or randori. However, you do not need to go to a bjj academy to learn good newaza.

I want to express again that it was all during practice. It don't mean diddly.

Just my .02

There is a young BB in my dojo. I would not say his newaza is better than mine. Some aspects are. His guard game is better than mine. My transitions from standing into newaza are much stronger and my transition game is tighter.

We are more or less even on passing guard, osaekomi waza, and various subs.

When we play standing and allow matwork, I often just don't want to fight him on the ground. He is a lot younger than me and has better endurance. If I can go down with a clear advantage, then I'll usually do that.

If I feel like I am getting sucked into his guard, I will usually just try and break out and stand up and get away. So far I can do this about 90% of the time. To be standing and have control of the bottom ends of his trousers is a pretty strong position. Question: Most people in Judo BJJ etc work on Guard passes. How many of you work on guard escapes? Just breaking loose to return to standing?

I think the issue is either going to the ground with a strong dominant position - or avoiding being on the ground with a strongly disadvantaged position.

I like matwork. I always played Judo in strong newaza clubs. But tactically, and also if you want to talk about current shiai rule, I think that if yiou are on the ground you want to dominate and finish quickly, or not be there.

On the BJJ and Judo theme - BJJ has given Judo a useful terminology for talking about matwork, and I see it reinvigorating Judo Newaza. I don't see much difference.

Jon

We rarely do ne waza so I get my recommended dose from BJJ. When I find myself in the guard, for example, missed getting side control, I immediately work to pass it and get to a superior or better position. I do get the opportunity to "stand" so this will benefit my Judo. Also, this allows me to get proficient with handling the guard if I ever encounter this in Judo and shiai.

I have Michael Jen's Ultimate Guard series ... the Guard Passing video has helped a lot.